OH HELL NO!

good.points alex.I guess i just comes down too,how bad a person see's there life,bad to one person might horrible to another.

Of gshredder, his life had some horrible situations that were out of his control. But I don't view it as a valid excuse whatsoever. The reality is that life can be hard on people. I think most people go through their life and experience horrible things, and it's how you respond to those things that define character. I think people who commit suicide or do so much drugs that they OD are incredibly selfish and self centered. They clearly are thinking of no one besides themselves.

Fix'd

Just kidding :P

@Btimm,

I agree and disagree there. Definitely true that the experiences we face change our personality - and it's our choice if we choose to let it effect us.

But I don't agree that they're self centered and selfish. We can't know how they feel because we haven't experienced these things. But I think it's their way of escaping reality, desperately trying to find a way to be happy, or a way to distract themselves from their regrets and sorrows.

I just don't think it's fair to judge. However, if they choose to kill themselves, that's fair enough. And maybe the human population is better off without them. But while they're still alive, I think it's fair to try and give them a chance to find happiness without it. Unless they're bringing their unhappiness to others.

You have to know that a person who purposely takes their own life does'nt do it because they are selfish. It's because they are so sick and in so much pain, they can't see anyway out. Kurt had more than just a drug problem. If anything, drugs were a temporary solution to a much bigger problem.

^^^ +1

We can agree to disagree. I think that when a person is in a significant amount of pain and feels the only solution is suicide, then they clearly want to get rid of their pain and allow their loved ones to suffer and grieve their death. So they are literally taking their pain and suffering and giving it to the people who love them. I think this is the very definition is selfishness. I do know two people who have took their own life and I have seen the results and how it affected the people around them. There is simply not an excuse for suicide.

Don't get me wrong here. I know I may come off sounding extremely cold-hearted here. But I do feel sad that they have to go through difficult times and don't know how to cope with the pain. I wish the people around them either knew to help them or that the person in pain allowed themselves to be helped. For that, I feel bad for them. But I don't have sympathy for the method of "solving" the problem.

Hope that made some sense.

It does brian,I agree that it was selfish if him to kill himself,s now his daughter has to groe up without a father.But lets just hope when she becomes more mature,she realizes what he went through and forgives him.also i dont think that she would want her father to live and be suffering for her sake do you?

No, I think she would want him to seek proper help. And yes, she should forgive him, it's important to not hold grudges and forgive people. The day I don't make a mistake will be ... well, ask my wife, I am pretty sure it hasn't happened yet. :o)

seek proper help?He tried that,i didnt seem to work either.He seemed like a smart guy from the articles ive read of his,im sure he weighted all his options before he did what he did.He knew what it was going to do too his,yet he still did it out of selfishness like you say,but if his life was that bad and he wasnt happy then why should he continue too live? cuz someonels wanted himtoo.that seems selfish in and of itself.

Life is what you make it imo.

You have to be willing to be helped in order for the help he seeked to work. I have overcome addiction myself in my life and failed many times initially. I couldn't be helped until I wanted the help myself. It really is that simple. The idea is at least. Of course in practice it is not easy, but the method is very simple to understand. People overcome obstacles all the time in the world.

I also definitely do not think that asking someone to continue living life is selfish whatsoever. That is kinda what you are supposed to do ...

I respect your opinion, I just have a different one myself.

I have overcome my own demons,drugs,bouts of suicide attempts,etc as you can tell ,cuz im talkn to you.And i know what your thinkn "your only 16yrs old" but alot of *** can happen in 16yrs.I just finnaly realized that the good things in my life outweighed the bad.I respect kurts decision becahse ino.what its like.to be in that situation,depression hurts,and.sometimes can be overwhelming,and apparently.it.was to.overwhelmming to.him that he.felt.he.needed to escape it regardless of anything else.

I respect your opinion also.

I don't know anything about mental illness, which I assume he had, but suicide is NOT AN OPTION. It is not a choice, it's a mistake or accident. We are hard-wired to live and people who try to commit suicide are not thinking clearly.

People who survive serious suicide attempts don't try again, in fact they usually increase their income by a significant chunk.

I get very angry at people who commit this act.

No gshredder, I definitely do not think "he's only 16 years old". I know that life can be very tough for people of all ages. I don't make light of a situation like that, I just think you chose to rise up and battle through and find a way to better your life. And that is commenable and respectable and it gives you added character for dealing with those issues. Some people decide to take that pain and remove it by giving it others when they makea decision to end their life you did not do that.

Thanks.I have idea of what goes on in peooles minds in times like that,thats why i was so quick to defend kurt,he was in that situation where the bad things outweighed the good and he felt that he probably coulnt beat it even with theraly,and proper help,he was probably so low,he felt he couldnt rise up,with the acussations of beating his wife,the constant media slander,all his health issues,plus his past demons.Some.people are stronger than others,but i guess kurt wasnt one of the strong ones.But on a side-note i still respect him.for being a good musician and a grunge pioneer,that wont change no matter what foolhardy decision he made with his own life.

-gs2112

I celebrated 18 years of sobriety this past Wednesday. I don't say this to brag. It's not something one brags about. However, it is something for me and my family to celebrate. 18 years ago I was killing myself and I was in a lot of pain. It was unbearable. I did things that I won't mention here. I wanted to check-out yet I wanted to live. But I wanted to live without pain and I didn't know how to do that. It wasn't a choice. I got lucky! The right things happened at the right time and I am here 18 years later. I wont go into all of what happened.

You just can't know what it's like unless you've been there. You have no right to judge unless you've been there. Sure, you can have an opinion but that's all it is. It's like saying "people that are homeless should just work". The last thing I ever wanted to do was to hurt my family and friends. It's like cancer. People don't get cancer on purpose. They don't just "decide" to rise up and beat cancer. Again, deciding to take yourself out because cancer is killing you and you are in so much pain is not selfish. It's a sickness that gets to the very core of your being. Once it get's there, you're lucky if you get out. To sum up, unless you've pointed a shotgun at your own face and thought "I'm gonna pull the trigger", you have no right to say you knew what he was thinking.

Lets conclude that this concert was a fail.

@ mac..First of all congratulations on your sobriety.secondly your points are alll valid,you summed up(kinda) what i was tryning to explain in fewer words,thanks.

-gs2112

I am not intersted in really reviving a debate here. Just wanted to take a second to admit I was wrong. I went downstairs tonight to watch Season 1 of "How I Met Your Mother" (show the wife and I are starting to watch from the beginning as a sort of "date" night thing. Three episodes per night means approximately seven dates for $30, tell me where you can do THAT!) and she was watching Oprah. Yes, she is only 30, but watches Dr. Phil and Oprah at night, lol.

Anyways, Oprah was talking about moments in her shows and having the people back on the show and one woman was in such grief over the loss of her daughter and she went on the show thinking she would receive no help at all and planned on ending it all when she got home. Of course, since she was on the show today, Dr. Phil (used to be on Oprah apparently?) had helped her see how to deal with her issues and resolve them appropriately and she decided to live. There is no doubt in my mind watching the airing of what was on the show some 13 years ago, that she truly meant it. I was really moved by seeing this poor woman in such agony. My heart went out to her. Now I am not saying I think it is okay, I still don't think that. But I learned something important today. I see things too often in black and white, with no real middle ground and I am far too judgmental. This was sort of a wakeup call to me that I need to improve this part of myself and maybe sharing with you all may help any of you who may also need it. I am not saying any of you do, but the wonderful thing about these shows is the many people it helps watching and there was testimony to that on the show today as well. So maybe my learning will help someone else here, who knows. Anyways, I plan on being less judgmental and trying to better myself. Here I was clearly in the wrong with my opinion here. It's clearly not a selfish act. It's not right either, but I should not be so quick to judge and form an opinion either.

I think it's important to be able to admit when one is wrong - it allows improvement and being able to accept constructive criticism and understand that there are always flaws to fix is crucial to improving as a human being. Today I hope I have improved upon one of my flaws.

^^^I Dont think any one member here is perfect,we all have our pet peeves,Its like jazzy has said,were all a big family,and we should accept our siblings for who they are,because they all.have something we can learn from,an opinion.And if one person tries to better themselves,i think we should all learn from that example,by admitting it when were wrong and opening ourselves to new ideas.Kudos Brian,you have enough maturity,that you admit your flaws,and try to correct them,which is more than i can say for myself.
\M/(*-+)
gs2112