Permutations and jazz

Hey all, i mean no offence by this to anyone, but i kinda want input from a jazz guitarist who well seasoned (experienced), so yeah... umm

I want to learn how to play the jazz improv type sound, that really funky jazz scale sound over a progression like this:




you know those really weird seemslike outta scale funky jqazz runs...

I know all the modes of maj and min scales, and am a pract ice freak, i know a lot of theory but maybe not enough? Id also like to learn how to play all these weird chords over the neck but i dont really know how... I know how to play the chords around the neck though (standard 135 or 1b35) but my main thing is how to play similar to this

Btw im not look for an answer like years of practice and hard work. My question is what can i practice to play like that? Not the blantantly odvious.

I heard something about permutations of chords and how that would help, but it also sounds like hes playing funky scales (not modes of minor and major) is he playing jazz scales or like some different type of scales?

My ideal is im not looking to be a jazz guitarist but a jam guitarist with a through o knowledge of jazz. Thanks a lot.


By the way im not a very or consider myself a fast player, im not looking for speed, but for knowledge and understanding, of course i wanna play it... But not as fast as this guy



^^ JIZZZZZZ. Damn thats good. hit me up with some funky jazz videos likes this... amazing.

ted green; "Chord chemistry"(chord reference book, beginning knowledge of subs). "Modern chord progression" (great your hands going and mind thinking about voicings) "Single note solo" 1&2 (now you can say you really know your scales on the guitar and begging/early intermediate playing changes)

Mark Levine; "jazz theory book" (as it says your theory)


there not really playing out at all, i mean chromatics and maybe come b6 scales if they view it that way(not a big Benson fan so i don't know), a bit altered of course, but that's 101 jazz. that and Benson isn't a big out sides type of guy maybe I'm wrong like i said i don't listen to a lot of Benson smooth jazz is lost on me.


also I'm going to assume you like most rock players don't know you scales good enough(do you know the relationship of each note while your playing) to back that up a good scale knowledge would imply a good chordal knowledge.

also you say 135 but do you mean 151351 or do you really know all 12 closed voice 3 note triads and how they relate. if you don't then learn em.

also you gotta swing man swing

lastly as we are all relativity young here you ain't going to find any seasoned guys here(that are posting anyway) I'd join http://www.jazzguitar.be/ and start snooping around there is some real knowledgeable guys there and it small to(not this small but close compared to other places)

i wanted to use an example form Levine's book on playing outside and in the introduction he made a good point that the idea of playing "outside" is relative in a lot of ways(people thought bird was out in the 1950s) but here is a example he gave




Ornette Coleman is an "outside" guy to me.

There are 12? i think i know 4 or 5 0.o

yeah thats true i figured id try asking here first.



Well what chordal to scale knowledge do you mean? if your talking some funky chord and then playing like an arabian 6th scale then no, hah but i know how the chords relate to the minor and major modes and how place them and yeah...

RA beat me to most of what I was going to say. So I'll just add this:

You should start thinking in multiple values EMB, when playing in a minor scale for example - the aeolian - you could easily play the aeolian licks and chords, but why stay there? Why not go further?

Layer it like a sexy cake. When playing the Aeolian, also play modes like Dorian, Phrygian, minor pentatonic, blues ONTOP of the original Aeolian - all of these can work over it as long as you learn how to resolve what you're playing back to the original mode.

Make sure you're ALWAYS emphesizing the root of the original mode though - that is a must, otherwise it'll get thrown off track. Most of the time Jazz players use chromatic passing tones, when used correctly it sounds amazing.

So in Aeolian you have 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7. So that's 7 notes right there, the chormatic scale has 12 - that's 5 notes that we aren't using yet! Each of these can be used as passing tones; as long as you start and end with the primary mode andything can fit inbetween.

Make sure you learn licks - I really recooemmend that you have a different lick for every single mode out there. So you are never limited to only a few licks.

ok let me get this straight. Lets say your in an aeolian and you stay in position, could i make the 6th natural like in dorian or flat the 2nd like in phrygian over the same shape? so it wouldnt be diatonic but still a mode of the minor chord even though it wouldnt be diatonic... So basically id combine scales... could i do that?

Yeah my jazz teacher today gave me a bunch of permutations to do, once i do those i wanna take the next step...

I feel like i know what to play over the chords... except i dont... Like if you asked me what goes over a dom7 chord the mixolydian scale does... And i can play that, but i feel like when im just jamming or improv in jazz band i have more trouble and lose the place to go, and sometimes ill only stay in the mode, even though i know the other modes i dont think ill know if theyll sound good or something... idk

thanks guys :)

"Learn them and then firget them." :) Charlie Parker is a true legend!

.

Said like Allan Holdsworth himself!


I was gonna post earlier, but I've been busy as of late bla, bla, bla. Haven't had the time to think this out. I think Jazz and RA pretty much answered your question.

I will add this though, while music in itself is freedom, jazz in itself is also freedom. So more than simple music, jazz is the epitome of true musical expression. Jazz and RA hit the nail on the head when they mentioned chromatic passing tones. That is the key to jazz. No matter what it is your are playing, you must use some form of... er can't think of the word, coherent(?) tones to bridge your passages. The passages themselves can be whatever you want, so long as they line up with the root, like Jazz said, but you gotta bring them home. Guess I just reiterated what she said, but with far less grace haha. Anyway, best of luck.

Rock on!

so where should i start? practice wise... with permutations doing funky scales... etc

also whats some good jazz songs to listen to, im a bit of a jazz virgin

As far as listening... YELLOW JACKETS! Allan Holdsworth, Jimmy Bruno, Chic Corea, Van Morrison, Frank Gambale & Al de Meola should get you started.

Like RA said, you need to start looking at scales more. Scales build chords, scales build other scales and so on. Start with some basic Jazz rhythms and phrasing. That, for me at least, is the hardest part. A common theme in Jazz is the Melodic Minor Scale.

These "funky scales" you speak of, are not really all that funky, like RA said, b6 (Melodic & Harmonic Minors scales) along with chromatic scales and some basic blues pentatonic scales. What makes them sound "funky" is the way they are used. Very similar to what Jazz suggested, G Mixolydian to A Melodic Minor over a C Ionian melody, you will get some cool, or funky sounds.

Next thing you can do, is build your own chords. Lots of jazz involves 7th chords, so check them out. Sticking with a C major tonality, build your chords from an E Phrygian setting and see what happens.

Hope that helps.

Rock on!

may have to copy and save to read(if you can read it. sorry best I'm going to do)

my previous post was a try to tab them but it didn't work and i hadn't the time. as said before not enough to know them know how the relate build your "CAGED" shapes with them (one hopefully you got a layout system and not just random boxes, but two if you do use "CAGED" you don't know just use E and A six note triads). then to practice them play your diatonic chord scales with them. This is really what all beginning guitars should know after you learn the "cowboy chords" but rocking & roll is dumb, and past my little rant you don't know your 12 3 note closed triads you miles behind.



sorry but you don't. Name any chord and because i know my scales (only diatonic majors are we talking about here. NO modes of the other 4 proper diatonic scale sets) I can play it in any position. Add to that all you have to do is tell me the scale formula(1,2,3,4,5,b6,7) and i can play it in any positions(some positions give me a hard time i ain't no master at this). this is because I know the intervals of the notes I play there not just random dots in a box shape to me. Know if i miss understood I'm sorry but I'm a bit jaded when it comes to this.

as for the books there are guitar books, music theory books, i gave you a place to start(really to start looking at what you may want to get), but that just the beginning of a long list. here is some recommend at the forum i suggested.

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzguitar-lessons/8771-top-50-guitar-music-books.html

just so you know, if you want to get this stuff you need to get some books and/or a GOOD teacher this isn't something you can get over the internet or juts pick it up by ear(unless your one of those people)

as for what to listen too get yourself a fake book(a must), when it comes to jazz I'm a bit of a snob (funny how with other music I'm the exact opposite) if it's past the 1950s or early 1960s it's mostly dead to me(obviously exceptions) . so a little of the list is T Monk of course(a must) Miles, Coltrane, Jobim, Brubeck.


also to start only deal with the Diatonic major modes then add other scales most song don't require those scales there more extended tech.


that one post may seem like I'm saying I know it all and I'm some sort of god, I'm not it's just what you should know. for example if you ask me a chord i will tell you in a sec or two but a great player can do it on the fly with out much thought. It takes years to get this all down to where you can say your a pro/expert and I just haven't been playing that long nor do i know if I'll reach that height any way(nor do i know if i want too)

im not really interested in the allan holdsworth, hes great but a shredder to me... he just doesnt please me i guess....

What is the CAGED system? ive heard it so many times and feel like i know it under a different name...

How would you know i cant do that? if its a major scale or a mode of it i know it. In the case you just described i can do that... i know my scales. You sound a bit like a guy from ebay i bought this attenuator from and as many times as i told him that it was the attenuator and not the amp he still said it was the amp... I kept saying how would you know? you live here do you? Point is give me a case where i cant and i can... i dont really know how to put it

I have a good teacher so yeah...

I hope you get my tone(it's hard to get over the internet) I'm not trying putting you down or say that I'm so great and you need to be like me. hell I need a hell of a lot more work myself. My point is trying to tell you where you need to be. And that isn't coming from me it's coming form all the books behind me(provide i understood them right).

and again i apologize if I'm not understanding you right, but I'm not selling(no money is involved here) anything nor do i need/want your admiration so I'm not some guy form eBay(not to be taken negatively just don't see the comparison) I'm just trying to get where your coming from which is hard to do without sitting down with you. But correct me if I'm wrong but you said you can't/are having trouble with extended chords well my answers is better scale knowledge. as I eluded too and sliger said scales build chords and a lack of being to play "funky chords" can be a scale issue(see scales as box charts on the neck)

but just as scales built chords; chords build scales. if you don't know chords and scales are basically the same thing just different dimensions.

so with that maybe it's you don't know your chord formulas??

if i asked you to play a 2nd inversion of a C-6(C minor 6th[don't know how familiar you are with chord symbols]) bass at 12 fret. what the issue you don't know the notes or you don't know where they are.

so again not being negative just trying to understand you i hope you get that(I'm a broken record but the internet is dumb like that)

also form the videos and your comments if you don't know(don't know how new you are to jazz) I'm going to guess you going to like be-bop and modal jazz. modal jazz because it's not as fast due to less chord changes.

the "CAGED" system is one layout the guitar is in, in standard tuning. each position is based off one of the five Cowboys chords. The position is named after the chord letter it is in open position. so for the key of C it is.

C Shape-- http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=C&mm=&v=0
A Shape-- http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=C&mm=&v=2
G shape
---e-8
---B-5
---G-5
---D-5
---A-7
---E-8
E Shape-- http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=C&mm=&v=1
D Shape-- http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/index.php?ch=C&mm=&v=3

just fill in the rest of the scale you want.

this isn't the best system(big gaps), all good layouts have more positions, but most start out here or a lest are better understood if you know the "CAGED". regardless if you want know this stuff you need a layout system if you don't already have one(box charts with black dots[even ones that might mark the root] don't count you need to know the intervals by heart). you can build a layout system with the triads(i supplement my with them as most do) but you need to do a *** load of memorizing, most other systems like "CAGED" are under 10 or just over.


also for a beginner in jazz (that has no classical scale sub knowledge), which is what I'm talking to you as, I won't and haven't been talking about any scales besides the major and it's modes,which I'm assuming you know as i have form the start.

yeah i guess thats right, i have trouble putting the scales and chords together, however im much better now after a month of music school,

Right i know the CAGED system, never formally but you know...

I could play a c-6 2nd inversion however id need time to figure it out because i dont know the shape of the chord off hand... But i could certainly figure it out fairly easily.

Im not sure what i like yet, i love the song afro blue and how high the moon, or at least jamming to it, and i love bossanova stuff. I cant stand people like allan holdsworth and eary frank gamble. Those 80s shredders who call themselves jazz guitarists. When you stack on chorous delay loads of distortion have a typical 80s hair do and a typical 80s style guitar, and play in a typical 80s style your not jazz.. Howver i love listening to true jazz guitarists, as few as i know. However yeah speed doesnt impress me at all, sure its cool in the case of the new frank gamble, he uses speed nicley when he feels right he uses it when he doesnt he has as much soul as anyone else... Reminds me of Les Paul...

Classical scales are different?

Let me say what i know in short...

The Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian modes and scales inside and outisde over the neck.

I know all 5 pentatonic shapes and scales

I know basic jazz chords and can figure out how to play weird ones but maybe not to the jazz standard...

I know most of the triads (or so i thought) around the neck

I still have trouble connecting the 2 even though i know both (scales and chords) i know a -7 can go over phrygian aeolian or dorian depending on context and so on with maj dim and dom chords but still dont solo amazing over them, i feel like i still dont know where to go even though i know the scale to use and how to use it and such, maybe i just should be more confident but i dont feel like i know what to improv over them even though i know the scales and chords and triads and such... and when i solo i find i stay too much in position (when if asked to immediatly to solo over a new progression)

EMB, that's now down to practice - a lot of practice. It's time for you to make it your second memory - you're not going to know all this shiznit off by heart so you can play it no problem under pressure - it requires time. It may seem boring and makes you feel like you should skip and do new things, but if you don't know these things off by heart WITHOUT holding a guitar then you shouldn't go any further yet.

Here's something I do, and I learnt from my greatest inspiration; George Benson - you need to learn how to solo vocally - this can help you create some BEAUTIFUL solos and melodies. Have you ever noticed that George Benson sings while soloing? Besides the fact he's planned his solo bars in advanced - it's coming from inside and not from what he knows. The whole "learn them and forget them" thing is VERY useful. Don't lose sight of the music itself.

Yeah, whats down to a lot of practice connecting them? how would i practice that? im down to practice so long, right now i do about 2 hours + of solid permutations a day, my jazz teacher gave me a sheet of permutations to learn in every mode of every key...

And yeah i was just saying last week how i wanna solo vocally/saxophonely.

Best thing to do now is to get "The Real Book" and "The Fake Book" in whatever edition you choose. They're all books of Jazz standards, learn these... at least one standard every 3 days. With this in your head you'll have so many ideas coming to you that you'll get through this struggle in no time.

Connecting them is just down to playing it sh!t loads of times - like how I'm sure you know the GMaj chord 1st position no problem now. It's just down to playing it - and using it in solos and in songs.

Everything you learn you should always try and practically play it, so it always sticks with you.

listen to jazz. Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Monk, Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter, Max Roach, Cannonball, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessle, Lee morgan are some of my favorites. Try to transcribe some solos. also pay attention to how the changes work together. That helped me alot because you don't need to think of switching scales every bar or so. i try to make it as diatonic a possible. and try to avoid roots. the strongest notes in a chord are 3 7 so i like to try to resolve to them as much as possible. repeating ideas is also very important. Thats just what my professors have told me. and with real books i would probobly start with volume one just because the tunes in there are a bit more popular.